Filed under: General
In response to my post below about Australia Day, I received a few great comments, though one exchange I believe warranted front page attention:
Comment by andrew (not G) @ January 28, 2008, 1:45 am
That date may well be way before 1770. It is not known exactly whether indigenous Australians originated here or not.
Comment by Andrew G @ January 28, 2008, 3:38 am
I was referring to when whitey bumped into our land and ‘By cunning use of Flag’ (thanks Eddie Izzard) claimed a country. x aa
Comment by andrew (not G) @ January 28, 2008, 11:17 am
I realise that. But for all we know, 10000 years ago, ‘blacky’ rolled up and claimed the land from another race that they wiped out.
I agree with the gist of your post. Bigotry is not cool and patriotism is a slippery slope to nationalism. But for how long do we have to beat ourselves up for what our forefathers did?
I’m not going to go into depth about indigenous issues here, but the one thing that I will say is – it does not matter what steps governments take to address those issues, they always get criticised heavily. We have developed this kind of culture of criticism, whilst no clear solutions are ever offered up by those who criticise. So those of us who actually want to see a solution get some kind of traction and work out, get a little frustrated.
Comment by Andrew G @ January 28, 2008, 2:31 pm
andrew (not g),
Thanks for your input.
To answer, and to draw a perspective for you, allow me to draw a comparison to the family of Patrick Mayne.
Patrick Mayne worked at the meatworks in Brisbane in the mid 1800’s. He was living at a hotel in Kangaroo Point called the Bush Inn. One night, a timber cutter named Cox was drinking at the bar, and after a few too many, started bragging about how he’d been cutting cedar up in the forest for a few years, was finished now and here with all of the cash he’d made, an grand total of £300 (which in 1848 was an enormous sum of money).
The next morning, a man crossing the Brisbane River on a barge spotted a pair of human legs on the riverbank, a few yards away was a human torso, expertly butchered with the ribs splayed open and all the innards gone. A few yards further away, the victim’s head stuffed into the nook of a tree.
It was the timber cutter, Cox.
An innocent man (later discovered to be gay) was tried, convicted and hung for the crime.
Mayne did it and took the money, though no-one knew at the time. He went on to use the money to begin a life of incredible wealth and power, buying up huge tracts of land and real estate , creating massive wealth for himself and his family. He even managed to buy his way into government. The man has many streets and a suburb named after him in Brisbane.
On his deathbed, he confessed to the murder.
On discovering that their fabulous wealth and power had been acquired from horrid and bloody and ruthless means, the family decided to set up a fund and donate most of the money to charity to try and make amends. In fact they donated the current site of the University Of Queensland at St. Lucia as well as a fund to provide the University with money (which is still active today), as well as various huge contributions to St. Stephen’s Cathedral, including massive stained-glass windows.
The family fell apart, with his children deciding that the insanity in the bloodline should stop with them, they all decided never to marry or have kids. Some of his children eventually succumbed to mental illness too.
What I’m saying is, that this family, when given the chance to try and make right something that they had absolutely nothing to do with, jumped at the chance. They could no longer live with the guilt that their lifestyle was built on the murder and destruction of an innocent man.
It is in this similar frame of mind that I ask you to consider the plight of the Indigenous Australians. Our entire way of life exists because those who came before us snuffed out their way of life. We live the way that we do now, because years ago, people who had nothing to do with us did things that we would never do ourselves, though we enjoy the eventual results.
At least recognise that this is the case, that you live where you live and how you live because of what happened before, and that simply by living here you are somewhat of a party to those events.
To be able to at the least recognise that these atrocities happened in our country, and try and offer some kind of reconciliation for this, I see is the only way forward for our country.
The indigenous situation in our country can not be ignored, it will not go away, and it is a blight on all Australians.
xx aa
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Nicely put.
Tricky topic. I suppose it needs to be talked about. Alot. In a very big forum. But I really dont feel comfortable right now. I dont want to come across as an uninformed tosser or a racist bigot. I know how I feel on the topic and I feel confident that what I have to say is right and just. But I guess I just dont know how to express it to others, which is a shame. Took me about fifteen minutes of staring at my screen and hesitantly pausing over my keyboard to come up with that.
Dont feel all that good reading that blog. Dont know why.
Of course the government gets criticized heavily for what they do, not just on the race issue but on everything. It’s a democracy, not everyone is going to be pleased, but it is their duty to try and please as many as possible. If we did not criticize the government how else would things get done, would our democracy even work? I doubt it.
Yes our forefathers did terrible things to indigenous Australians, and yes it is our duty to try and reconcile the damage. But the fact we came from different countries or at different times are inconsequential. The fact is Australia has many migrants (myself included, I moved here from England); immigration is a part of our culture and economy. And I think it is beautiful that Australia is so multicultural, its diversity still amazes me. And just because someone was born here dose not give them more of a right to wave an Australian flag than anyone else.
I went to an Australia day fireworks display near where I live, and some people there knew I was from England (perhaps my accent?) And they may have had too many beers and decided to hassle me. Saying I should not be allowed at an Australia day celebration, and I had no right to have on Australian flag on my shirt. How dare he! It is because of people like him I have not celebrated an Australia day since I got here (my first one I was beat up fairly badly.) Yet I decide I would go to this one (I have just took up kick boxing, I felt more ‘prepared’), and that is what I come face to face with? I politely pointed out I do more for Australia by working then he dose, relying on benefits.
But I diverse, it should not matter where you were born. Merely the fact you live in Australia. We all have to abide by the same laws, use the same currency, and are effect by the same government. We are all Australians, we all have equal rights. Patriotism should not mean you were born here, or that you have took a citizenship test. It should mean that you accept the countries laws, that you call yourself Australian, if nothing else.
Yes that’s my rant over with.
Tink x
Genetically speaking, it is almost certain that indigenous Australians did not originate in Australia, nor did their hypothetical predecessors, and so Andrew (not G)’s point is not entirely without merit.
The main problem with the Mayne comparison is that it involved his direct decendants about an act specifically committed by him, as distinct from individuals who were neither related to or known by the original ‘invaders’, or its rulership, though they have benefitted from those actions.
The issue is difficult because it is recent. But it is by no means unique. Peoples have been mistreated and displaced for millenia. So how far back should it be taken? Should I feel a twinge of guilt when enjoying Mexican food because of the inextricable acts of the Conquistadors. Should Nigerians stop speaking French? What about the ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the Jews of the Canaanites and neighbouring peoples? (In all of these examples, it was the same god that was believed to be backing the perpetrators’ actions – and the same god of ‘whitey’ who bumped into Australia’s shores.)
The point is this: terrible things happened that cannot be undone, and wounds will not heal while people insist on scratching at them. I am sorry for how indigenous Australians have been treated in this country, in the same sense that I am sorry for someone’s loss when they attend a funeral. But it doesn’t mean I’m responsible for it, and it doesn’t mean that all indigenous Australians are still being mistreated or disadvantaged now (though that doesn’t mean that none are).
All individuals bear a measure of responsibility to improve their own lives. It is all too easy to lean back and blame everything on something that happened centuries ago and say ‘woe is me’.
Incidentally, the ‘innocent’ gay man was guilty of the crime of homosexuality, illegal in Brisbane not only in the mid 1800s, but also right up until 1990.
This has been a good discussion and I only have a few minor ‘wrap-up’ points from my perspective.
Of course I recognise the history of this country. However, I am not a party to those events by living here. The but/for test is an over-simplification for an issue such as this. And anyone who really thinks that should act on their convictions and live elsewhere.
I am all for reconciliation. I love the fact that indigenous people can get assistance with tertiary study. I’m basically in favour of anything that we can do to get these folk back up on their feet and prospering.
Jeffro raises a good point about taking responsibility to improve one’s own life. We must do what we can as best we can. And a little effort has to come from those that we seek to help.
I honestly hope that this government makes more inroads than the last.
And a final note to tinkob. As you have experienced, we have our fair share of losers. I hope the day improves for you in years to come. And don’t lose the accent; it’s always a laugh having a pommy accent in the workplace.
Jeffro,
Your analogies and metaphors are misleading. You say that wounds will not heal while people are scratching at them, but you miss the point that these wounds are numerous and both old and fresh. Massacres were perpetrated; communities were uprooted; hundreds of thousands of people died; entire languages disappeared. People were defined as not-people and no consequences met those who casually perpetrated hate crimes upon them. This began two hundred years ago, but indigenous people were still being uprooted by a racist, paternalistic government well into the twentieth century. The vote was granted scant decades ago. There are people alive today who experienced first-hand the trauma of the stolen generation; their children’s children will still be affected by it. People are still getting their livers kicked in half by policemen; dying twenty years before their time; turning to drugs because they see no other path open to them.
The “it’s all in the past, let’s move forwards together” approach is well-intentioned but seems to forget that the reality of pervasive racism, vast quality-of-life disparities especially in health and housing, isolation, cultural deprivation, and so on, all stem from governmental and private actions in the distant and recent past, and present.
The point is, terrible things did happen, yes, and of course today’s Australians are not personally, causally responsible for them. But terrible things still happen, and terrible things will continue to happen, because of those past atrocities. It is erroneous to argue that while today’s non-indigenous Australians benefit from past atrocities, the present catastrophic results of those atrocities ought prompt no deeper feeling and motivation to action than a slight, dissociated feeling of “sorry.”
All individuals bear a measure of responsibility to help the most disadvantaged people in society. It is all too easy to say that because something happened a long time ago those who live in the present are divorced of connection to its effects.
nigeltde, though the issues you point out are real, your response largely misses my point. Do you imagine that there are not even now still ongoing repercussions of the past issues in Latin America, Africa, or the Middle East to which I referred? So of course it would be extraordinarily naive to believe that there are not still ongoing issues affecting indigenous Australians. And those issues aren’t going to go away quickly. But there is gradual improvement, and the rate of that improvement is not going to get any quicker by rehashing all of the wrong things that have already happened and can’t be undone.
Instead of complaining that the “vote was granted scant decades ago”, be glad for the eventual correction of that particular injustice, and recognise it as a small step forward. Yes, children were taken from their families, and yes it still has repercussions, and yes it is terrible, but the policies of removing children are not still in effect.
As you point out, there are still many complex ongoing issues, most of which are out of the control of most people, and some of which are to varying degrees dependent on the actions and attitudes of the affected individuals themselves. You suggest that I recommend the “it’s all in the past, let’s move forwards together” approach. The fact is, there’s a great deal of it that’s not all in the past. But the worst of it is.
Jeffro,
To say that the worst of it is past is technically accurate, to the extent that massacres are worse than getting up each morning afraid that your children might have killed themselves in the night. Of course I am glad for the small steps forward, for gradual improvement, but that doesn’t mean I can’t criticise past misguided policy and individual action, or acknowledge the relationship between present-day disadvantage and past atrocity.
This relationship is important, and acknowledging it doesn’t automatically mean living in the past or casting everyone involved as permanent victim or permanent villain. Acknowledging this relationship is not simply rehashing the past, as you suggest, but is essential in achieving reconciliation and dialogue. It is essential in promoting in the general public wider understanding of and a lived, personal engagement with the human rights travesties that currently exist in this country. It is also essential in guiding governmental policy so that it is sensitive and not blindly, arrogantly paternalistic, and can also point the way forward to positive action, both symbolic and concrete.
Indigenous health issues have not improved in the past 20 years – it’s commonly known that Indigenous people can expect to live 17 years less than the non-Indigenous population of Australia.
There is no gradual improvement in this area – it is stagnant, and it is stagnant for one reason – the majority of Australians have not made it a priority for our Government to “fix”.
Indigneous deaths in incarceration are significantly higher than the white population: in fact, incarceration is higher, full stop.
The NT intervention is a perfect example of how an emotive issue (child sexual abuse) was used to take away rights of Indigenous communities, and tar them all with the same brush: that of abusive, alcoholic, dole-bludging losers.
I agree, we (white Australians) are not personally responsible for the atrocities that have occurred in the past 200+ years, but for the decisions made by our Governments in our own adult lives, we are. We must speak up, and we must make reconciliation an issue. To do otherwise, does make us personally responsible: yet, that view is likely to be unpopular as it’s easy to say that by doing nothing, you are not adding to the burden.
I quote English philosopher Edmund Burke who said, ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’ Silence shapes our history just as much as actions committed by others.
I feel the aspect of this issue that people keep getting hung up about is the responsibility thing.
I know the compensation side of things has a lot to do with this fact.
Saying sorry shows Indigenous Australians that there is understanding,compassion and a desire to right wrongs suffered by their ancestors at the hands of our ancestors.
These people enjoyed a healthy and happy existence in this great land for thousands of years. They managed their food supply and respected and protected the animals and environment and had a system of law that kept relative peace in their communities.
Can we newcomers boast the same?
It is not at all surprising that these people struggle in almost every regard in our society. Look at how rapidly and vastly their way of life has changed.
Would I fair any better if I were to be plucked from my comfortable, air conditioned, cushy existence and plonked out on a rock in the middle of nowhere? I think it may be a slight culture shock!
I have to weigh in again.
arc angel, you have bought into the romanticised depiction of indigenous Australians which is propagated by the AFI and Film Victoria.
There is scientific evidence which supports the fact that the dead heart was not always dead. It was a flourishing, verdant landscape with many bodies of water etc. All that was burned off. By guess who?
Some plants/trees need to be burned off. The majority, however, do not survive it. Indigenous Australians were nowhere near as “in touch with the land” as many believe.
Andrew (not G) I thank you for your opinion and respect it even if I don’t agree with it.
You may well be correct and if you are it does not alter my opinion. It all comes down to a shift in attitude and doing what is the right thing.
We can go on forever arguing the ins and outs of who was here first and for how long and how they lived and so forth.
This is where we continually get bogged down and people like you get frustrated with the lack of any real working solution.
Lets get on with it and do the right thing so that we can all eventually celebrate Australia Day with real pride and move forward.
Yes Australians are all equal, it is just that some are unfortunately more equal than others!
arc angel )( raised an important point about how indigenous Australians had a working system, though it was an idealised view. Though their system may not have been quite the rosy utopia that some would have us believe, the significant fact is that they have been forced to undergo an extreme sociological shift. Though the inverse of arc angel )(’s comparison may seem comical at face value (’plucked from a rock in the middle of nowhere and plonked out in a comfortable, air conditioned, cushy existence’), it is a significant issue that leads many to a sense of emptiness, and for some, this begets substance abuse and other social problems.
It is truly sad, and we should be saddened by it. But I didn’t do it, and I can do nothing to undo it. I can no more take the blame than I can take any credit for the benefits that have also come along with the hardships. It is not my fault that indigenous Australians have a lower life expectancy (though I haven’t seen any information indicating what their life expectancy was prior to ‘white settlement’), just as it is no one else’s fault that I can expect to live six years less than the average woman. I am all for reconciliation in its true sense, but I am not for the use of the term ‘reconciliation’ as employed by some: as an emotive soapbox to define any and all issues, real and imagined, used as a tool to perpetuate social division and anger. Yes, speak up about reconciliation. But speak up about solutions, not just problems.
Getting back to Andrew’s point: “We live the way that we do now, because years ago, people who had nothing to do with us did things that we would never do ourselves, though we enjoy the eventual results.” This is not new, and the statement can be applied manyfold to events throughout human history. And each time it has happened has not made it any less wrong. I would dearly like to think that people have finally begun to rise above their delusional beliefs that they are superior to others (usually because ‘god’ allegedly told them they are).
To quote Hippocrates, “Declare the past, diagnose the present, foretell the future … make a habit of two things — to help, or at least to do no harm.” When discussing emotive injustices, people often have trouble separating those first two things. By no means should the past be ignored or hidden. But it should be acknowledged that it is in the past, and attention should be focussed on resolving the truly important issues of what is happening to people now.
For what it is worth Jeffro I enjoy reading your comments and think you have a diverse knowledge on many subjects. I found it interesting though that you saw the inverse of my comparison on lifestyle/culture comical on face value. You go on later to say you dearly hope people one day rise above thier delusional beliefs of being superior to others.
Aren’t you displaying this same superiority when you assume that living as Indigenous Australians (on a rock) is less fulfilling or meaningful than living like newer Australians (in cushy comfort). This is only your perception not a fact. Or have I misunderstood your point?
Of course you can find countless examples of similar past events in the histories of countries across the world, but not all of their Indigenous peoples are in the same shameful and desperate trouble that our Australian brothers and sisters are.
The Maouri people for example are thriving and their culture is celebrated throughout New Zealand. The Haka is used by visiting sporting teams and performed at important events with pride. These people hold a most worthy place in New Zealand society.
I truly believe that our Indigenous Australians do not feel that sense of worth and no amount of government handouts will rectify this.
I am heartened to see my children learning about and celebrating Australian Aboriginal culture in primary school. I hope that this next generation will find the compassion and wisdom and understanding that the current generation seems to be lacking.
arc angel )(, yes it appears that you have significantly misunderstood my point. The point of the inverse of your comparison, of transferring a person from what seems like a more harsh environment into a nice comfortable air-conditioned one, is comical on face value because some people might imagine that such a shift could not possibly result in hardship. However, hardship does result because of the culture shock involved in the relatively sudden and forced nature of that change. There was no intention of implying that either lifestyle is less fulfilling or meaningful – it is that change that results in a loss of sense of meaning.
This is great. Good points from both sides here, I can’t even decide what I believe any more.
well said, andrew.